Do you believe?

The purpose of the forum is to allow people to post spiritual questions for which they would like answers from their fellow board members.

Postby mechana2015 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:17 pm

Abiogenesis is a part of the creation debate. Take it to PM or drop the subject, per CAA rules.
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Postby K. Ayato » Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:42 pm

My question is: Why should we be obsessed with finding things that either support or debunk what's written in the Bible? As far as the "events not matching up" rebuttal, no one (aside from God) really knows when the beginning of time took place. Everything (whether solid or weak-founded) is really a good educated guess.

Plus, cultures back then didn't use the Gregorian calendar we use now, so dates may be a little off. And maybe not.

Regardless, I don't think God wanted us to read His Word and then at some point go "Uh oh, scientific proof doesn't match up". What I feel He wanted was to read what He gave to us and learn (based on what is provided) more about who He is and how He revealed Himself through those pages.
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Postby Nate » Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:29 pm

K. Ayato wrote:My question is: Why should we be obsessed with finding things that either support or debunk what's written in the Bible?

Because people see it as a "one bad apple spoils the bunch" type scenario. I think that's the proper analogy. It goes like this. If one thing in the Bible can be proven to be wrong, then everything in the Bible could possibly be wrong, and therefore Christianity is wrong and we're all fools for believing it.

But, if stuff in the Bible can be proven right, then that proves that it's totally all true and therefore God. This is why you get nonsense like "The Bible is a pretty accurate history book" because if that stuff is true then the other stuff must be true too!

While it doesn't really work like that, some people see it that way. They don't understand that fiction and mythology can be combined in the same work...Romance of the Three Kingdoms, a novel about ancient Chinese history, did this. Many of the battles and characters in it actually happened and existed, and remain true to their historical counterparts. However some of it is made up for the purposes of entertainment and drama. In fact Zhang Xuecheng said that the novel was 70% fact and 30% fiction.
As far as the "events not matching up" rebuttal, no one (aside from God) really knows when the beginning of time took place. Everything (whether solid or weak-founded) is really a good educated guess.

The response to this is usually to say that God dictated the book of Genesis to Moses word for word therefore it must all be true or God is a liar. I don't agree with that, but that's their response.
Regardless, I don't think God wanted us to read His Word and then at some point go "Uh oh, scientific proof doesn't match up". What I feel He wanted was to read what He gave to us and learn (based on what is provided) more about who He is and how He revealed Himself through those pages.

This is how I feel. The Bible is not meant to be a science or history book and to read it as one is really kind of missing the point of it in my opinion.
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Postby Davidizer13 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:16 pm

K. Ayato (post: 1592169) wrote:Regardless, I don't think God wanted us to read His Word and then at some point go "Uh oh, scientific proof doesn't match up". What I feel He wanted was to read what He gave to us and learn (based on what is provided) more about who He is and how He revealed Himself through those pages.


All very good points! Adding on to that, I don't believe God wants to have us a faith that comes and goes with peoples' ideas about this or that in the Bible or God, especially from people who are truly, honestly looking at the Bible and the various contexts around it. There's a didactic bent to the historical books, with a lesson or agenda that's being pushed throughout them, like most of the ancient histories. Therefore, any analysis of them has to see through that to figure out what really happened, and why it's there in the first place. And since history is an inexact thing, there's going to be a lot of explanations for that; it's the nature of the beast. Throwing all that out in favor of a single explanation while claiming that anything besides that is misguided or evil isn't going to do anyone favors.
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Postby Mr. SmartyPants » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:43 am

K. Ayato (post: 1592169) wrote:My question is: Why should we be obsessed with finding things that either support or debunk what's written in the Bible?
Because at the end of the day one's entire mental concept of "God" and spiritual practice(s) surrounding "God" are all based off of how one chooses to interpret a selection of texts that are thousands of years old, written by numerous authors, and countlessly argued and disputed over by generations of scholars ever since the book was written. If using a medium of logic or rationality to (which I'm not a huge fan of, btdubz. See Fideism) believe that Bible is true by divine inspiration, then it becomes fallacious. It's all circular reasoning and confirmation bias.

So Christianity is existential. Not rational. But even then you have the issue of how to interpret the darn thing. It's all words. Words are contextual. They mean things sometimes and other times don't mean anything. Sometimes they mean the same thing but other times mean different things. And sometimes they kind of mean things and other times kind of don't mean anything. It's like what I just said here; the whole "meanings" mumbo-jumbo. There's a lot of words but the amount of meaning behind it can be contextual. It can differ depending on whose reading it. What does *it* mean? Or what did *I* mean? (Because maybe there's a difference between the author and the text) Or does authorial intent matter? Deconstruction time! Maybe it doesn't matter! Or maybe it does and doesn't at the same time. Maybe there's a multiplicity of meanings behind a text. If so who decides that?

Those are the issues you have with trying to decipher capital-T truth from a book. Welcome to the problem with words. And as silly or pseudo-intellectual as it all may sound, at the end of the day you never know what things may mean... especially if it's all written in an ancient language.



Also side note: The great thing about science is that just because something isn't scientifically explainable doesn't mean that there is no naturalistic or scientific explanation for it. Look how adaptable it is! But also the crappy thing about science is that it's all just based off of human experience. To assume science as truth is humanistic and fallacious. Look how limited it is!

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Postby rocklobster » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:54 am

I believe in most of the miracles. Where I draw the line is demonic possession. Because we know more about mental diseases nowadays, I suspect those people might've been schizophrenic or other conditions.
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Postby armeck » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:48 pm

rocklobster (post: 1592226) wrote:I believe in most of the miracles. Where I draw the line is demonic possession. Because we know more about mental diseases nowadays, I suspect those people might've been schizophrenic or other conditions.


this would explain why we don't see demon.possessed people like they did in those days
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Postby K. Ayato » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:06 pm

I believe there are still people possessed with demons out there. What I don't believe is that we should be so focused on seeking them out.
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Postby armeck » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:16 pm

I've lived in third world countries. and i have seen people that very well could have been demon possessed. however i think that many times in those days it was just mental illness. not always. but probably a larger percentage of it
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Postby SierraLea » Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:19 am

When I posted this, I was thinking more about the Miracles in the Old Testament. But you guys are bringing up some interesting stuff from the new testament.
On the subject of demons, I agree with armeck. Many of the cases in the New Testament coul have been mental illness, but sometimes the demon Jesus drives out actually recognize him, and even beg him on one account.
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Postby AnimeGirl » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:16 pm

Yes, I believed they happened. Because when you're dealing with God, logic is easily defied. He was the one who wrote the rules; He can bend, rewrite, or break them if He so desires. So despite how downright cannot-happen-ever things can seem, like I said, God makes the impossible very possible. Just like a storyteller who weaves their world as they will, so can God do so with His world. The point of the Bible is to show us God's power, and what better way than to do something so impossible that our human minds cannot comprehend, since it defies all logic, reason, sciences, and understanding? This....is faith. Even if you see it first hand, it takes faith, since when we're talking about things like that, you automatically try to evaluate whether you're dreaming or crazy, and when you're not either....it's just amazing. My 2 cents ^.^
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Postby Shao Feng-Li » Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:59 pm

I'm just going to say "Yes, totally! God rocks!"
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Postby bkilbour » Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:48 pm

I am of the opinion that, if I can't trust a part of the Bible, then I can't trust any of it. If one part is false, or contradictory, then I cannot trust the rest. So I believe, and there's an awesome book called the "Encyclopedia of Bible difficulties" that helps me to answer a lot of the questions people pose.

Shao Feng-Li (post: 1593169) wrote:I'm just going to say "Yes, totally! God rocks!"


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Postby HexFish » Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:22 am

I believe that some did happen and some are a metaphors for a bigger picture. For example lets look at genesis and the Earth being created in a week. We can not deny that the world is extremely old. But this is justified by that god and we humans have a different perspective of what is time. God has rules that are total opposite of what we can comprehend as human beings. So this discussion can swing either way.
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Postby Shao Feng-Li » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:06 pm

bkilbour (post: 1594581) wrote:I am of the opinion that, if I can't trust a part of the Bible, then I can't trust any of it. If one part is false, or contradictory, then I cannot trust the rest.


This.
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Postby Mr. SmartyPants » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:24 pm

You guys don't think there's a difference between "fact" and "truth"?
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Postby Foxfire50 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:22 pm

I'd rather not question God or why certain things are in the Bible thanks to Revelations 22:18-19
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Postby Xeno » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:58 am

Revelation 22:18-19 is in reference strictly to the book of Revelation. The Bible had not been compiled at the time of its writing, thus taking that scripture and applying it to the entirety of the Bible would be misinterpretation.
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Postby Furen » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:38 pm

What I don't understand is why you have a teacher that doesn't believe it, he should know that... especially since he's teaching and being judged harsher as he's taken on the roll of leading younger believers...

I absolutely believe all of it, it's hard to imaging some things like the age of the people then, or the insanely high water level around the whole world that covered mountains. But I do not believe they didn't happen at all.
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Postby goldenspines » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:02 pm

Xeno (post: 1598107) wrote:Revelation 22:18-19 is in reference strictly to the book of Revelation. The Bible had not been compiled at the time of its writing, thus taking that scripture and applying it to the entirety of the Bible would be misinterpretation.
Actually, it's not a misinterpretation if you believe the entirety of the Bible is God-breathed and whether it was all compiled or not, each part/book can relate back to another. Or to a further extent, the belief that the Bible was intended before it was written (and before the creation of the world).

Obviously, while many people believe this, we can't prove it physically (granted, some instances in the Bible can relate to historical/scientific studies, but I'm speaking generally here). Just like we can't prove the existence of God physically (We can't summon God to appear before our eyes in the flesh and say "Here is God."). Yet, there's nothing scientific that disproves the existence of God/some other higher power (any who think otherwise may PM me, please), but it's a belief, just like most other things in this world.
Thus, you can't necessarily rule out that Revelation didn't relate back to the rest of the Bible either, even though it had not been "published" with the rest of the Bible. Basically, if God intended it to be so, it is so sort of mindset.

It's around this topic that things get sticky, though. I can't dictate what is "right" or "wrong" to interpret the world around me, only who I choose to believe in.



On a final note to actually relate back to the topic, since I do believe that scripture is God breathed, I do believe these things/miracles in the past happened. Oddly, it seems obvious for me to believe these things since I already believe in and have a relationship with an unseen, omnipresent God who caused them to happen.
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Re: Do you believe?

Postby Cleanedbyblood » Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:17 pm

I believe that if it didn't happen it wouldn't have been mentioned in the Bible, since it is the Word of God
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Re: Do you believe?

Postby AndrewinIce » Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:31 am

I believe that the Red Sea, burning bush, etc happened. I think the point of the whole thing is to show that God is all powerful, etc. That said, I am not sure that God made the earth in seven days. I think he COULD have made it in a blink of an eye, but I think he took time to craft everything. Every animal, every tree, every lake, etc.
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Re: Do you believe?

Postby Vilo159 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:01 pm

I believe they all happened. I think people get too caught up in trying to prove some thing or checking it with historical context and such that they forget why its there. It's obviously there for a reason, and like K. Ayato said, we should be focusing on the meaning behind it and why it was there. Does it really matter if the bush was literally on fire or not? It still serves the same purpose.
I pretty much agree with Goldy on the rest, I believe that it was God-intended, so I see no problem believing them and relating books to each other and such. He's God, so I think I'm ok to trust Him on these things.

To overgeneralize, isn't religion something we BELIEVE in? Can we not have some faith in this stuff?
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Re: Do you believe?

Postby Vega » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:05 am

I look at most of the stories in the bible like I do for greek mythology. Rooted in a lot of history but not in too much truth.
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Re: Do you believe?

Postby SierraLea » Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:22 pm

Where'd the poll portion of this go? Is it something to do with the new design for the page?
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Re: Do you believe?

Postby mechana2015 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:46 pm

It's possible that polls didn't transfer with the switchover.
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Re: Do you believe?

Postby kerhin » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:57 pm

Yes i believe. God is able to anything, not almost everything. Our understanding and our abilities do not come close to compare his. God designed and maintains the whole universe. Compare to him the smartest people on earth know nothing. Just because we can't fathom something does not mean it did not happen.
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Re: Do you believe?

Postby CalebFishy » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:15 am

I believe everything in the Bible. It is the one and only Book of Truth in this wretched world.

Hebrews 11:1
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Kinda how Luffy is in One Piece. He is searching for the One Piece but there is no proof of it existing. :thumb:
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Re: Do you believe?

Postby Nate » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:59 pm

God is like a rubber man from one of my cartoon shows.

Actually it would explain why God had Noah build an ark instead of magically taking the animals into Heaven with him. Much like Luffy, God is powerless when water is involved. That's why Jesus had to walk on top of it.
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