Fate/Zero: "—If I can, I'd prefer nobody to be sad."

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Postby Neane » Tue May 01, 2012 9:14 am

I got spoilered a long time ago.
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Postby blkmage » Sat May 05, 2012 9:01 am

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/1336208848

The heartwarming tale of Kiritsugu's past begins, feat. cameos by Type-Moon words.

edit: oh, and I didn't realize at first, but there is a Kara no Kyoukai cameo too
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Postby TheSubtleDoctor » Sat May 05, 2012 12:34 pm

Video starts.

Setting: a warm, friendly island village.

Me: "How exactly this show will violently destroy this peace while simultaneously psychologically ruining any survivors?"

*squish, squirt, chomp, stab, crackle, bang*

Me: "...Oh. That's how."

Also, I made the unfortunate decision to eat lunch during this episode.
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Postby Mr. Hat'n'Clogs » Sat May 05, 2012 7:45 pm

TheSubtleDoctor (post: 1555320) wrote:Me: "How exactly this show will violently destroy this peace while simultaneously psychologically ruining any survivors?"
This is exactly what Andrew and I said right at the beginning.
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Postby blkmage » Sat May 12, 2012 1:52 pm

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Postby Neane » Sat May 12, 2012 4:14 pm

Happy Mother's Day, Kiritsugu!
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Postby blkmage » Wed May 16, 2012 6:47 am

I'm starting to wonder if maybe Fate/Zero actually doesn't work very well without having read Fate/stay night.
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Postby TheSubtleDoctor » Wed May 16, 2012 1:17 pm

blkmage (post: 1558318) wrote:I'm starting to wonder if maybe Fate/Zero actually doesn't work very well without having read Fate/stay night.
That is a bit cryptic. any way you can illuminate without spoiling (much)?

Season Two needs more Rider.
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Postby blkmage » Wed May 16, 2012 1:52 pm

It's more the reaction I've seen to Kiritsugu in the last few episodes. I've mentioned before that Fate is about ideals. What you have is people considering the ideals presented by the characters and their actions in Fate/Zero and trying to figure out what Fate/Zero is trying to say. The problem with that approach is that what's presented in Fate/Zero isn't what it's necessarily arriving at, because we (are supposed to) already know the major thematic conclusions from Fate/stay night and we're supposed to be reading Fate/Zero through that lens.
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Postby TheSubtleDoctor » Wed May 16, 2012 2:43 pm

Thank you, blkmage.

Incidentally, you have eloquently and accurately expressed exactly why I advocate consuming entertainment in production order rather than chronological. Even if the staff doesn't set out to make a prequel with the same intent as the creator of Fate Zero did, I think that it is too easy for creators to subconsciously slip into this mindset.
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Postby Mr. Hat'n'Clogs » Sat May 19, 2012 10:41 am

I hate this show and I have a feeling I will hate it even more next week.

I should've known not to wish Rider showed up more.
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Postby Yamamaya » Tue May 22, 2012 10:35 pm

Kerry confirmed for best Iron Woobie.

Blkmage definitely brings up a good point. Without spoiling Fate/stay night let's just say that Shirou wants to be a hero akin to papa Kerry. The VN really focuses a lot on Shirou's idealism and ultimately deconstructs and reconstructs it. It's easier to pick up on this theme in Fate/zero if you have read Fate/stay night.
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Postby blkmage » Sat May 26, 2012 6:35 pm

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Postby Mr. Hat'n'Clogs » Sun May 27, 2012 7:50 pm

This was my favorite episode yet so far, I think. I was always kind of rooting for Kariya to do well, but I wasn't terribly surprised that things have gone wrong, and my incredible fear of losing Rider is still there, so it's all good.
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Postby Yamamaya » Wed May 30, 2012 4:58 pm

Mr. Hat'n'Clogs (post: 1562458) wrote:This was my favorite episode yet so far, I think. I was always kind of rooting for Kariya to do well, but I wasn't terribly surprised that things have gone wrong, and my incredible fear of losing Rider is still there, so it's all good.


Really? I didn't find this episode that fantastic. Other than the chase with Saber and Rider. This seemed like one of those episodes to set up the final events to come.

Also, Berserker's ability is pretty useful if I do say so myself.
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Postby TheSubtleDoctor » Wed May 30, 2012 5:27 pm

Nitpicking here, but does it seem a bit incongruous to anyone else that Berserker's special ability is a form of stealth/deception? Really? No big boom?

I'm not too thrilled about how Matou ended up last episode. Like, I understand it; things make sense. I get his mental state at the moment. But things feel...off? Just open your mouth and say the words: "He was dead when I got here." That's it.

Also, he needed more screen time earlier on.
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Postby blkmage » Wed May 30, 2012 6:13 pm

Berserker has more than one Noble Phantasm. We've already seen his other one in action: making anything he touches (telephone pole, Gilgamesh's swords, an F-15, etc.) a Noble Phantasm. This one has to do with the black fog that surrounds him, which obscures his identity. If he weren't summoned as a Berserker, he'd be able to use the transformation ability on his own, but since he's out of control, they had to use a command seal to do it.

I'm not sure that Kariya saying anything at that point would've helped. It certainly wouldn't matter either way whether or not he was the one who killed Tokiomi, since the important thing was that he found out that Aoi really did love Tokiomi. This realization basically robs any meaning from what Kariya's been trying to do in the Grail War, which is to "save" Aoi (who doesn't need saving) and Sakura (who still does). Kariya doesn't snap because Aoi is blaming him for Tokiomi's death (since he would've died anyway if he didn't end up winning and as a magus' wife, she's perfectly aware of this too), but because Aoi was perfectly happy all along.

It's true that Kariya probably could've used more screentime, except this is one of those instances where there are things you're assumed to know already. Unlike Kiritsugu, Aoi, Tokiomi, and Kariya are original characters in Fate/zero. Their story in Fate/zero isn't so much about them as it is about the state of the Tohsaka and Matou houses and, more importantly, Sakura and Rin, so the context for their story is what happens to Sakura and Rin and the two houses during Fate/stay night.
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Postby TheSubtleDoctor » Wed May 30, 2012 6:25 pm

Ah, I ether missed or forgot about the angle of wanting to save Aoi. I knew he wanted to save Sakura, and I thought/incorrectly recalled that as his sole motivation. The scene has leveled up in my mind.
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Postby blkmage » Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:39 am

The calm before the storm, basically.
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Postby blkmage » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:56 am

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/1339246755

I'd forgotten how nicely these encounters called back to the drinking party.
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Postby Yamamaya » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:41 am

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[SPOILER] RIP Rider, Broskander. You were truly an inspiration to me and all of us. Thank you King of Conquerors. [/SPOILER]
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Postby blkmage » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:43 pm

Like with the drinking party, it seems they couldn't get everything they wanted to get in down to about twenty minutes.
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Postby blkmage » Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:58 am

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/1340453326

-00:00:00

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That was Kiritsugu's favorite phrase.
The man who was a superhero to me was saying that he thought he was a failure.

He didn't even need to explain it to me.
The world of the young me was so different from the world of the adult Kiritsugu that the passing grade to be a superhero was different.
For me as a child, the house was my only world.
So it was enough for me if I could keep protecting my father, Fuji-Nee, myself, and the shed that I loved.

I only tried to protect the ones I could see.
But maybe Kiritsugu wanted to do something about even the ones he couldn't see.

I was reckless when I was young.
I educated myself by cursing the heartlessness of the world.
The world was cruelso I made myself even more heartless and used that as a weapon, trying to follow through on my ideals.

There will always be some that cannot be saved.
It is impossible to save everyone.
If I have to lose five hundred to earn one thousand,
I will abandon one hundred and save the lives of nine hundred.
That is the most efficient method.
That is the idealKiritsugu once said that.

Of course, I got mad.
I really got mad.
Because I knew that without being told.
Because I myself was saved like that.

I don't even need to be told something as obvious as that.
But stillI believed that someone would be a superhero if they saved everyone even though they think like that.
It may be an idealistic thought or an impossible pipe dream, but a superhero is someone who tries to save everyone in spite of that.

You're right, Shirou.
The result is the most important thing. But with that aside, your heart trying to do so is

Oh yeah, Kiritsugu said something about the heart.
…I can't remember too well.
After all, it's rare for me to remember something from such a long time ago.
I must be in a deep sleep.
That must be true, as it's rare for me to dream at all.
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Postby Neane » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:29 pm

Just saw the last episode, I was very satisfied with this series.

How did everyone think of the series?
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Postby blkmage » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:27 pm

Some minor things could've been handled better and the midseason break was baffling, but overall, a well-executed adaptation.

Like I mentioned before, I noticed a huge gulf between people who read (not watched) Fate/stay night and those who didn't. I am really interested in seeing what non-readers took away from the show.
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Postby TheSubtleDoctor » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:37 pm

Well, speaking as a non-reader, the whole thing came across as this lavish spectacle of an action show with a cool concept (legendary heroes fight) at its foundation. I did feel a bit disconnected from many of the characters, especially Kirei and Kiritsugu. As I've said elsewhere, a few of the characters really deserved some more screen time to provide viewer connection and more emotional punch during the denouement. And I felt as if I was missing out on some depth the story may have had to offer.

On an unrelated note, I still do not/have never understood the fascination with/adoration of Saber. I've seen both Fate TV series, and she proved to be a functional character, playing her role well enough. I wasn't blown away by her, however.
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Postby Neane » Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:54 pm

I think the last two episodes somewhat suffered because of obvious time constraints but other wise this was a great series.
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Postby Atria35 » Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:13 am

I was kinda disappointed by those last two episodes. This seems like you have to have a fairly solid background in Arthurian legend and mythology in order to get them, esp. between her and Lancelot. I'm familiar with what happened and why in passing, but don't think that the casual fan will get it, and that brings down my opinion. Also, I'm getting a lot of hints forshadowing F/S Night, which I have not seen or played the VN of. That's not a bad thing in and of itself, but some of these were shown in a way that makes it rather clear these were probably for those who have.
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Postby blkmage » Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:01 am

I've come to the conclusion that even though it seemed like it would turn out to be a decent standalone story at the beginning, you really need to read Fate/stay night before reading or watching Fate/Zero (as was intended). A lot of the characters get their development in Fate/stay night and everything in Fate/Zero is meant to supplement it. So now that it's over I get to wall of text about this stuff.

Kiritsugu's character is introduced in Fate/stay night from the perspective of Shirou. We know he saved Shirou and is his adpotive father and that he's mellowed out. One of his key scenes in Fate/stay night is the very last scene in Fate/Zero. But the important thing relating to Fate/Zero is that we get hints that he's done things that he regrets and that ultimately, he realizes he was wrong. I saw some people complaining about this when he was arguing with Saber, but I think that by the end of Fate/Zero, it was pretty clear. Even so, if you've played Fate/stay night, you won't misread this point, because it's one of the main questions: you want to save everyone, but you can't, so who will you save?

It's important to note that something that Fate/stay night people will know that Fate/Zero didn't address is that Kiritsugu doesn't destroy the Grail because he it didn't do what he wanted to do. It's because he realized the Grail was tainted. I could get into how this happened, but the result is that any wish granted by the Grail will now inadvertently result in tons of people dying.

Unlike Kiritsugu, Kirei shows up in Fate/stay night and plays a huge role. He's the main big bad and gets a ton of development. So Kirei's story in Fate/Zero is more of an origin story. His motivations are completely inscrutable unless you've gone through Fate/stay night.

Saber in Fate/Zero is interesting because she only alludes to the Fourth war once in Fate/stay night, which is to mention that Kiritsugu only spoke to her three times. Her story in Fate/Zero stems from her seemingly odd choice of wish in Fate/stay night. If you paid attention, you'll notice that her wish at the beginning of Fate/Zero isn't the same. That said, I found Saber to be the least interesting in her own route in F/sn and thought she was much more interesting in UBW.

There's no assumption that viewers/readers are familiar with Arthurian legend, because it assumes that you've read Fate/stay night, which covers whatever material you need to get this part. After all, a huge part of Fate is Saber explaining and trying to justify her wish to Shirou.

So you're right that this show is really bad for casual fans, but that's the nature of Type-Moon works and unfortunately, this is a work that builds upon that kind of stuff.
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Postby Neane » Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:35 pm

blkmage (post: 1575040) wrote:
this show is really bad for casual fans




I think a casual anime fan would think that this series is ridiculously good eye candy. They would watch the Fate/Zero anime for what it is and then move to another series if they wish. The same way people see a show on TV and then watch another show after they are done. Not everyone needs an extremely well crafted plot/storyline to derive entertainment from an anime.
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