So... Who LIKES motion controls here?

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Postby ShiroiHikari » Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:08 am

Nate (post: 1421925) wrote:Also, Nintendo DID release a joystick controller, called the NES Advantage.

And talk to someone here who plays fighting games, like Omega Amen or Kkun. They will tell you a joystick is superior in every way to a d-pad for fighting games. D-pads in no way replaced joysticks...don't believe me, look at oh, pretty much every arcade game EVER. There were also joystick controllers released for the SNES and Sega Genesis, though they tend to be rarer than the Advantage (probably because the Advantage was made by Nintendo, whereas the other joysticks were made by third parties).


Yeah, I had an NES Advantage (or rather, my dad did). It was a pain in the [censored]. I suppose it would've been good for certain games though. And yeah, fighting games are pretty hard with a D-pad; never said they weren't. I only said joysticks were bad for platformers.
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Postby blkmage » Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:09 am

I feel like fighting sticks are a relatively recent thing (as in people actually going out to buy them or construct them, and in only in the last few years), but that may be because I only met people who are really into fighting games in the last few years. Although, I have heard the Saturn pad is apparently the king of gamepads for fighting games or something.
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Postby Nate » Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:10 am

Oh, I forgot to mention. The reason for d-pads wasn't because developers thought they were "better" in some form. It's because d-pads don't break as easily as joysticks do. They're also probably cheaper to make/implement because you don't have to have as many contacts or materials.

They were also crucial to the development of handheld gaming, the modern d-pad was basically invented for the Game and Watch games because a joystick would have made it difficult to put in a pocket. There were other d-pads before this one, but the Game and Watch one was the one that took off.

And again, while the home systems had d-pads, the arcades continued using joysticks. And in fact, joysticks started coming back in a sense with analog sticks.

So the only reason Nintendo "forced" d-pads on people was because it was cheaper and easier to do, and they did provide a joystick controller for those who wanted one. People also realized that d-pads actually did work better for certain kinds of games (platform, puzzle). However, d-pads are clearly inferior for fighting games and FPS games.

Which is why I'm not TOTALLY opposed to unique control schemes. Stylus and motion controls can work really well...as evidenced by my constant praise of Kirby's Canvas Curse, and I should really mention Wii Sports here. Even though I don't play Wii Sports, motion control works great for it. Just keep it out of games like Zelda is all I'm sayin'.

EDIT:
I feel like fighting sticks are a relatively recent thing (as in people actually going out to buy them or construct them, and in only in the last few years)

They've definitely gotten big in the last few years for a lot of reasons, but I think there were fighting sticks out for a while. But then again, the PS1 era was pretty bad for fighting games as I recall, and online multiplayer didn't get really big for fighting games until this generation. So probably the fighting sticks' boom in popularity was probably linked to that.

I'm sure Omega could tell us more, if he ever found this thread. I may bring it up on the Gamecast.
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Postby Mr. Hat'n'Clogs » Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:17 pm

Nate (post: 1421818) wrote:I don't think this is a fair comparison, for a lot of reasons. First, people complain about bad button control schemes all the time. I remember an online review site talking about the Mega Man Anniversary Collection for PS2 and Gamecube. In the end he said flat out buy the PS2 version, because the Gamecube version of the game made A fire and B jump, which is the exact opposite control scheme Mega Man games have had and goes completely contrary to how people have controlled the games for years. He called it out and said it was a terrible decision (though he understood to a point why they did it]seems[/i] more sensible to make the big green A button the shoot button, even though it isn't).
I think what blkmage was getting at is that when something like this happens, people just suck it up and either deal with bad controls or don't play the game, they don't go clamoring for getting rid of using buttons in games, because we're used to buttons and know they work well.

As far as motion controls go with me, I've never had any problem with TP like you do, though I actually enjoyed the game. Mario Kart is pretty bad, but besides that, the only games I've really played on the Wii are Super Paper Mario and Fire Emblem:Radiant Dawn, neither of which have motion controls. TP, which seems to be one of the main topics, didn't make you feel like you were fencing, but they worker well enough. The type of swing you made in Zelda has never mattered much, anyways, all of them will be blocked if they're guarding and will do the same damage, except the jump attack, but that also lets you press a button rather than swinging the remote around.

As far as PH and ST goes, I don't get what you guys are complaining about. Tapping an enemy to kill it might be any more awesome than tapping A, but at the same time, if you wanted to use the boomerang in combat and retain the stylus controls for that, I can't see that working well in the middle of combat. I have different issues with ST, but I never had any problems with controls.
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Postby ShiroiHikari » Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:14 pm

Does anyone else think that a game like Okami would be cool on the DS? I mean it makes you draw symbols and stuff right? What better to draw symbols with than a stylus?
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Postby Nate » Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:28 pm

Mr. Hat'n'Clogs wrote:I think what blkmage was getting at is that when something like this happens, people just suck it up and either deal with bad controls or don't play the game, they don't go clamoring for getting rid of using buttons in games, because we're used to buttons and know they work well.

It's not that we're used to buttons, it's that really, what else are you going to use to control something on a game? Even motion controls would require buttons to an extent, to make choices on menus and whatnot. In other words, there's no way you could take Kinect and use it to say, make a post on a website, though you can on the Wii (the point at a letter and press A to type it thing is slow and painful, but it's functional).

It's that buttons have a history even before video games. Even before computers. Machinery has buttons to give input to the machine, because it's simple and works well. I wouldn't want to have to sit there and swing my arms in a certain way in order to activate the emergency stop on a machine.

Yes, I know. That's not the same thing. I'm saying the reason buttons are used is because a) they are the fastest and most accurate form of input that exists at the moment (unless we get brain electrodes that can read our thoughts) and b) they are cheap to create and implement (since motion controls require accelerometers or infrared cameras or regular cameras or some other form of technology, and buttons just require simple electrical contacts and a small plastic cover).

Why would you want to use a more inaccurate and slower form of input for an action game? That will forever remain a mystery to me. Is it in the name of "progress?" Being "new and unique?" If I use oregano instead of brown sugar and lard instead of butter for french toast, that would be "new and unique" but it would taste like garbage I'm sure.
if you wanted to use the boomerang in combat and retain the stylus controls for that, I can't see that working well in the middle of combat.

Have a button assigned to be "secondary item" like, y'know, every other Zelda game ever made in history, and if you have the boomerang equipped and you press the button without drawing a path, Link just throws the boomerang straight out in front of him. Boom. You can use the stylus for cool boomerang puzzles like making it go around a wall, and still use it just fine in combat.

To quote those Staples commercials, "That was easy."

And like I said, the "use stylus to do everything lulz" crap in Phantom Hourglass is annoying and I hate it. It doesn't give me the freedom I have in other titles. If there was a way to do it, I guarantee you that if we had a "Zelda vs" mode thing and you used stylus controls to control Link, and I was able to use the d-pad and buttons, and we fought each other to the death in the game, I would win every single time. Every. Single. Time. Because the d-pad and buttons would be faster and more accurate.

Why do people feel the need to defend terrible controls? I just don't get it. Nintendo can be wrong, you guys! Not everything they do is holy and perfect! Remember Virtual Boy? That's proof enough!
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Postby Furen » Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:23 pm

Mr. Hat'n'Clogs wrote:Super Paper Mario and Fire Emblem:Radiant Dawn, neither of which have motion controls.

Well technically SPM does but I'll not go into that

Nate wrote:"Zelda vs" mode thing and you used stylus controls to control Link, and I was able to use the d-pad and buttons, and we fought each other to the death in the game, I would win every single time. Every. Single. Time. Because the d-pad and buttons would be faster and more accurate.

Well there are people that are quite good at stylus controls, I'm sure there would be somebody

Nate wrote:Why do people feel the need to defend terrible controls? I just don't get it. Nintendo can be wrong, you guys! Not everything they do is holy and perfect!

We aren't saying that, actually the other two main systems are working on motion controls (Yeah differently but they are)
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Postby Rocketshipper » Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:08 pm

When the Wii was first coming out I was really *really* skeptical about it. I wasn;t even sure I was going to get one at all until I played a bit of Twilight Princess on a cousin's Wii and loved it. Twilight Princess is probably my favorite Wii game.

But...its hard for me to say that even the Wii's motion contriols have really made any of these games *better* than they would have been anyway without motion controls. Maybe they're fun and interesting in a "gimmicky" sort of way, but the only Wii games I can think of that would be signifigantly different without motion controls are the "Light Gun" shooters like Umbrella Chronicles. And maybe thats why I managed to tolerate the Wii's controls, because in the end, for most games, they're still basicly a gimmick. In contrast, I really hate the idea of the Kinect because it seems to have taken motion controls to a level where games are no longer even recognizable as games anymore. Its hard to imagine playing something like Sonic the Hedgehog or Mario or a JRPG, or just about any game as we know them, on the Kinect. And that much of a drastic change isn't appealing to me.
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Postby TGJesusfreak » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:11 pm

Well I personally really will like the sword swinging things in LoZ: Skyward Sword. I really actualy enjoy that "stupid derpa derpa me swing sword" stuff. But you all can hate me for that.

Also I personally think Nintendo has some of the best games ever. I find that the other systems don't have as many games that I like. That's just my opinion though
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Postby Fish and Chips » Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:51 pm

TGJesusfreak (post: 1422477) wrote:Well I personally really will like the sword swinging things in LoZ: Skyward Sword. I really actualy enjoy that "stupid derpa derpa me swing sword" stuff. But you all can hate me for that.
TGJesusfreak (post: 1422477) wrote:Well I personally really will like the sword swinging things in LoZ: Skyward Sword.
[quote="Wikipedia"]The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword (ゼ]TG confirmed to be from the future.
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Postby Nate » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:31 am

TGJesusfreak wrote:I really actualy enjoy that "stupid derpa derpa me swing sword" stuff. But you all can hate me for that.

I don't hate you for that. That's your choice. I just don't understand it.

Basically you're saying "I'd rather watch the Rankin-Bass cartoon Lord of the Rings cartoon than the Peter Jackson movies!" And if you wanted to, hey, your choice, go for it. But why would you choose the clearly inferior one?
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Postby blkmage » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:04 am

I think it's pretty obvious in those two cases why people choose one over the other, whether you agree with them or not.
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Postby Shao Feng-Li » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:25 am

I haven't used motion controls a whole lot, but they're ok I guess. Wii Sports is fun with them, but trying to play a racing game with your controller in the air kinda sucks. My favorite thing is a keyboard and mouse anyway.
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Postby Etoh*the*Greato » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:31 am

blkmage (post: 1421940) wrote:I feel like fighting sticks are a relatively recent thing (as in people actually going out to buy them or construct them, and in only in the last few years), but that may be because I only met people who are really into fighting games in the last few years. Although, I have heard the Saturn pad is apparently the king of gamepads for fighting games or something.


The hobbyist emphasis is pretty new or... At least, it's pretty new to the mainstream. The arcade crowd has always had a fascination with quality parts and there's been an underground arcade building society for awhile now - at least as long as the internet has been around to show these people that there were others like them.
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Postby Furen » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:45 pm

Fish and Chips (post: 1422489) wrote:TG confirmed to be from the future.


*cough*E3Demos*cough*
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Postby Fish and Chips » Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:48 pm

Furen (post: 1422568) wrote:*cough*E3Demos*cough*
Because they let random passersby into E3.
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Postby Nate » Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:39 pm

Fish, that just proves your point.

See, there was no Skyward Sword demo at E3 this year. So that means the only way TG could have played it at E3 is if he played it at NEXT year's E3...thus, Furen just further proved to you that TG is from the future!
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Postby TGJesusfreak » Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:50 pm

Lol I didn't mean I had played it guys! Sheesh! I can still like that sorta thing though right?

@Fish no need to take things outa context XD I'm sure you know what I meant :)
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Postby Bobtheduck » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:54 am

Fish and Chips (post: 1422581) wrote:Because they let random passersby into E3.


It's a moot point, as the game wasn't at E3, but I have two friends who have been to E3 more than once a piece.

It's not "random passerby" but it is something

(one is a moderator at Capcom Unity, the other is a speaker at Arcade conventions and trying to reignite the arcade industry in the US)
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Postby Etoh*the*Greato » Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:05 am

Bobtheduck (post: 1422959) wrote:the other is a speaker at Arcade conventions and trying to reignite the arcade industry in the US
I wish him the very best of luck... I'm not sure he'll succeed, but I'd love it if he did.
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Postby Bobtheduck » Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:20 pm

Etoh*the*Greato (post: 1423008) wrote:I wish him the very best of luck... I'm not sure he'll succeed, but I'd love it if he did.


The arcade advocate is a She actually. The Capcom Unity mod is a he, though. Interestingly enough, both of them are passionate about the Arcade industry (but one only really cares about Tournament fighters)

I believe she's currently working at Aksys, too. Which is one of the few companies still making arcade games.

EDIT: To be on topic, again, here's a preview of Kung Fu Live. I'm excited. I was excited since I saw their first demonstration on the PS2, but that never materialized. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqUL8KkcSHQ
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